The Debate on God

September 23, 2010 at 5:08 am (Religion)

Here is a debate between a freind and I, I was wondering where everyone else stands on the issue.

Question:  The bible hasn’t been wrong in 6,000 years. Do you really want to question it now?

My response: The assumption was that if we grandfather the idea of god and say “look at all these people who have believed for all this time” then I can empirically say “and here are all the people who have questioned since the beginning” The debate over god cannot really be settled because no matter how many times someone claims there is one, I ask for evidence, there is none. which leads to the idea of faith for which there is also no evidence. Beliefs in a higher being cannot be empirically proven no dis-proven. Thus I do question for both sides and see no rational reason to accept either. ^.^

Friend response to me: Aubrey, given our past record with debate, I would like to dig into this a littlel deeper and see if we can find the rabbi…t hole 🙂 I have found evidence, and I can prove through referencing to historical finding, scientific findings, and biology, theology, the proof that there has to be a higher power.

Romans 1:19-20

19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans 2:14

14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Romans 2:15

15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Psalm 19

1 The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5 which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
6Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
and its circuit to the end of them,
and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

All these verses relate to God being the founder of all things. It even explains why we naturally know that things are wrong. I don’t have to tell someone that one of the commandments of God is do not murder, we already know that is wrong.

Now, opposing side.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/

if you really want to read it all….pretty much, billions of years accounts for rocks hitting against each other and….we are here now….

Proved through rocks and fossils

My biggest question is how could something come from nothing? If God is not there, that means that there is nothing that created this, which means nothing became something on its own.

I believe in God, some believe in dirt. Difference? I know where my dirt came from, where did yours?

The biggest problem I have with evolution is that it is all based on humanistic values, which is atheistic at heart.

If there is no God, we are no better than pigs and rats. Which would means we are cause and effect machines. Which takes away all free will, which takes away all responsibility for our actions, which takes away all accountability. No meaning to life, nothing after we die, no reason to wake up.

I don’t know about you, but I would hate to live in that world 😦

Now, the opposing sides fights.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/creation.shtml

If you want more facts, I have videos, books, talks, all kinds of stuff.

I could fill up a whole filing cabinet and take on a whole tournament 🙂

My response: As for the argument for god, give em an example of something that does not come inscribed in a book that is supposedly given to humans form ‘god’ It is a logical fallacy to say that I know god is real because the book he gave to us says so…. I then can believe that the vampire Lestat is real cause of the book he wrote and gave to us through Ann Rice as a prophet. Under that premise I have yet to see evidence that you can gather from a more reliable source, aka empirically.
As for the evolution claim. There is not a claim that nothing came from something it is physics that states that the matter in the universe came from a hyper black hole that once it reach maximum density exploded giving the universe and that it (theoretically) will re-collapse and do it all over again. Evolution is scientifically backed up and the reason that it is ‘agnostic’ at heart not ‘atheist’ is that whether or not god exists there can be an empirical claim in the world allowing us to have a causal connection in the world around us. and that cause and effect does not declare a lack of free will. the way that our brains have ‘evolve’ has given us a small evolutionary 1 up on the rest of the evolving species on the planet. Not because god commands it but because with the way that our bodies are built we either had to adapt to our environment or die off like other have. We evolved.
This allows us to make a cognitive choice and thus retain our free will. Beyond that there is a claim in your argumetn that without god I would have no purpouse. However if I am a free agent of my own making that functions within the laws of nature without some over protective father figure watching my every move then I have a huge pourpuse each morning: to define myself by my action and to creat my own existence in the world with out the help of a higher power. This is because I as a free agent am powerful enough to make my own choices without supervision.
the idea that god needs to be in our lives is the result of anxiety about taking responsibility for ones own actions and the fear of death and all that in tells. Rationally there is no empirical claim for this thing called god that cannot be said and cannot be explained in some fashion by science. Further more if one were to say that it is because god willed it that way then your god in non-unique and becomes a matter of taste then a necessity to function in the world.

*~*~*~*

What is your stance on the issue and is there any empirical evidence that can be made to prove the existence of God other then ‘faith’ based arguments?

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2 Comments

  1. Kris said,

    I cannot tell you if God exists or not because as you said, there is no proof that he does. Here is what I think about religion: I think it is a way for people to forgive themselves or fill a void when their life is meaningless. Notice that most people are convinced when they are at the lowest point in their lives. They will believe ANYTHING. And the first religious organization to catch them in that state wins.

    Also notice that one’s religious beliefs largely depends on where one is born, and we all know that no one has control over that. So, if one is born in the US, one may be Christian and be convinced that her religious practice is best for her. On the other hand, if one’s born in the middle east, then Islam is undoubtedly the right path for him! In fact, he’d be willing to crash a plane into the side of a building to support his cause. Oh wow, the insanity…

    Is it God doing all this, or is it just people driven by a mass movement supporting a cause greater than themselves?

    By joining a religious organization, an unhappy person feels whole again by contributing to a greater cause, washing away all guilts and sins, and starting over on fresh slate, while meeting new people who are all on the same boat! What could be more relieving and convincing? Joining such a cause, however means giving up the freedom of the mind, because you’re letting someone else’s idea or doctrine shape your behavior and your life. Most believe it is for “the greater good of society” when it’s really mostly benefiting the people who run the church.

    Here is a fact for you. No one can know for sure; no one has super powers to speak with God, or YOU would too. People spend so much time studying and worshiping God, they start suggesting that God causes the everyday events that happen in their lives.

    I once had a friend who got in a car accident and ended up in the parking lot of a church after she came to a stop. She was then immediately convinced that God existed, otherwise how could this possibly happen? By ending up in a church, she interpreted an event, that could have happened anywhere, to be a message that God wanted her faith. She then asked me what I thought the whole thing was and I replied “In a random environment involving an infinite number of variables, it happened to be that two cars collided in front of a church because of the actions of both drivers that preceded the event.” She said that was so…boring. Yes, life outside drama is boring to those who thrive on it.

    When you didn’t know about religion, did you ever think there was a higher being controlling your environment? No. Everything you’ve ever believed came from someone telling you. And that’s how it’s been for thousands of years. You can’t prove the events in the Bible have happened just like I can’t prove Abraham Lincoln existed with our textbooks.

    Ok, I’m done with my rant. If you would like to know for sure, through the study on the nature of mass movements, then I suggest a book I’m currently reading called The True Believer by Eric Hoffer.

    Hope you don’t mind me posting on your blog ^^;;

    -Kris

    • aubreycierra said,

      Kris,
      Of course you can post on my Blog! This is meant to be a place where others and I can talk about things. I don’t claim to know the truth about God. But my argument is a pragmatic one: When people believe in God it is justified to an extent as long as that belief has some practical payoff for them. I think that religion’s tendencies to take advantage of people are both sad and wrong. People do not have the right to hurt or reject others because they don’t believe the same thing. My point is that with an analytic eye we can see that there are no grounds for people to try and convince others about a given belief. I will agree with you that people want to have some higher power to believe in and they feel like they are nothing without that figure. This is a weakness in self-esteem. If people were more comfortable with the idea that for the most part they are in control of their lives then there would be little or no need to rely on religion to try and explain away the events of the world. I don’t agree with the idea that we cannot know of Abraham Lincoln without text books. There are other ways to prove that he existed, there is no such evidence for God.
      I will have to read that book when I get a spare moment, it sounds like it could be really interesting.

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